the state of the union

[Seth]

not good

http://fuckitall.com/bsh/

[poopypants]

President Seth-

Tell me now, do you still believe Iraq doesn't have weapons of mass destruction or chemical agents? If so, what would you suggest we do with Saddam? After all, he threatens to 'make 911 look like a picnic' compared to what he will do to us if we attack. And, if he has no weapons, what's he going to use against us?

And please, think of the answer yourself, don't run to one of your liberal professors for the quick fix.

After all, you're an ideologue, so no matter what President Bush does you'll be one of those people who never agrees with ANYTHING he does. Ready for the rhetoric.

Vice President Poopy

[Johnny Carwash]

that video was hilarious

[reallygroovN]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

that was very funny. lets roll :eek: :D

[prism]

great clip...thanks Seth :)

did anyone notice the other night when he would stop and get that "I wonder if they're falling for this shit?" look on his face...it's amazing how some people can't see thru his propaganda:cyclops:

[Seth]

what is amazing is that many people in the US according to a recent poll believe that Saddam Hussein and Iraq were behind 9/11.

did you notice how Bush didn't once mention Osama Bin Laden in his State of the Union address?

it seems we need new foreign and sometimes domestic enemies to support the needs of the oil executives in DC and elsewhere.

[Seth]

and what proof do you have that he was behind it, moreover; that Al-Queda is operating in Iraq at this time?

none, has both the British and U.S. government and intelligence agencies have offered zero proof to their respective domestic populations/

the US and British government, under the leadership of Bush and Bill Clinton in drag, excuse me i mean Tony Blair, have presented zero proof that Al-Queda has any links to Iraq.

separating my perspective of the US government from the argument that it is all about oil is easy to do we you have the evidence to back it up.

[Highway23]

that was really funny

[reallygroovN]

just because i think this is a reallyreally funny clip doesnt mean that i believe saddam hussein is innocent. i dont. i dont believe that bush and cheney or rumsfeld are either. i believe that their families and businesses have done business with iraq and for that reason alone,any action on their part is suspect.

however, i do trust colin powell and i will see what he has to say in february.

and no, i dont think we should take a wait and see attitude toward iraq. after all, it would be worse then a shame if we just took a *wait and see* attitude and another tragedy occurred.

but there is nothing wrong with poking fun at the president. that was reallyreally funny :D

[mtgirl]

too bad my computer won't show it to me :(
anywayz, pocket change from me...
i believe he's got some fucked up shit and i believe he does some fucked up shit. that's not the question. the question is, is that cause to go waving our shit up in his face?

[poopypants]

Seth-

Obviously talking to you is like talking to a wall. Captured PLO documents proved that Saddam Hussein has and is funding Terrorist training camps outside of Bhagdad. He paid for the training of suicide bombers. If you don't believe that then that is your problem. It was all over 60 Minutes. So if it's gonna take death to change your mind, then I'm sorry you are that naive.

Where were you in 1999 when Bill Clinton, Tom Daschle, and Janet Reno were on television spewing the EXACT same message the Bush administration is saying today about Saddam? That he is a sick motherfucker who is ready to sell weapons to anybody who wants them. Pussy ass Bill Clinton(who also gave North Korea 6 Billion dollars and the technology to build soft water nuclear facilities, thanks asshole) lobbed cruise missles into Iraq in 1999, but i didn't hear a peep from any of these Hollywood celebrities let alone you Seth.

And what about us bombing the shit out of Bosnia? Where were you and all the liberals then? What threat did Milosevic pose the U.S.? NONE MOTHERFUCKER. But, like Saddam, he was slaughtering people by the tens of thousands and we put an end to him real fast. You have double standards, and the fact that you believe this war is about oil is utterly unfounded and absurd. We could have had his oil the first time around but we let him have it back. So don't give me that bullshit.

[Seth]

but, you can't connect him to the attacks on September 11th, moreover; the question of why iraq and why now still has to be answered.

handling the situation diplomatically rather than militarily is the best bet and the one that will cost the fewest lives on both sides.

i opposed the us military war on Yugoslavia and when the Clinton Administration launched military attacks on Iraq in the nineties i also spoke out against it.

you can't tie me to the inconsistences of some of my allies on the left.

[poopypants]

Ok here it goes...3rd grade math

Terrorism = bad, usa fighting against terrorism = good,

Saddam training terrrorist = contributing to terrorism = bad

We are going after people who fund terrorism, perform acts of terrorism, or in any way contribute to the cause of terrorism, what about that don't you understand? I mean seriously, you want to try diplomacy with Saddam Hussein? He has violated 17 UN Treaties, not gotten rid of his chemical and biological weapons, and has played cat and mouse with UN Inspectors(who just yesterday announced that, suprise, Saddam was not cooperating) for over 12 years. I don't think diplomacy is working. And we are giving him more than enough opportunity to come clean and he is not. It's called war Seth, no one wants it, but sometimes it has to be done. We'd all be living under the nazi regime if it wasn't for war.

When the people of Iraq are dancing in the streets, you come talk to me.

[yer ardy]

has "diplomacy" EVER worked?
( seriously, i'd really like to know.... )

[corduroykate]

http://www.mafqud.org/

check it out. it highlights just a snippet of saddam's large portfolio of abuse...yea this is the work of a guy who would really respond to "diplomacy." give me a fucking break.

[Not_Trapped]

Allah is pissed at us--the whole of the United States.

This man still talks to Kurt's imaginary friend Boddah and has one of his one-diplomacy? I don't think so either.

Dominic

[Seth]

for your information - a must read at the bottom of this post for those who don't think this is a war about oil.

also, it was George Bush and Brent Scrowcroft who were quoted after the last major Gulf War to the effect that the war then was all about it...


http://www.workers.org/ww/2003/versus0206.php

The Bush administration has run into a series of hard bumps on its road to war. There is visibly mushrooming opposition to the war at home and abroad, as well as the sudden escalation of conflict between Washington and its imperialist rivals in Paris and Berlin. Bush's drive for war against Iraq is truly becoming a battle of Washington against the world.

Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets of Washington, San Fran cisco and other cities on Jan. 18. Sim ul taneous demonstrations were carried out in dozens of cities on all continents. The worldwide movement is mobilizing for demonstrations on Feb. 15, which were initiated by the European anti-war organizations.

Bush's poll numbers in the U.S. have dropped precipitately, both on support for the war and on the economy. Meanwhile, the Washington Post reported on Jan. 25 that "the Bush administration has asked 53 countries to join the United States in a military campaign against Iraq, but so far the 'coalition of the willing,' in President Bush's phrase, consists of a handful of countries and even fewer commitments of troops, officials and diplomats said yesterday."

Bush's belligerent State of the Union speech was calculated to overcome this worldwide mass opposition and the crisis with the French and German governments. He combined threats to go it alone with a new barrage of lies to justify the war.

Bush's job was facilitated by Hans Blix, head of the United Nations inspections team, whose report handed Washington a gift of war propaganda by making a blanket denunciation of Iraq's attitude. Blix served the overlords in the White House and the Pentagon by what a Jan. 26 BBC report described as the "sandbagging of Iraq." But he covered himself by asking for more time for inspections and saying, give peace a chance.

[Seth]

800 missiles to hit Iraq in first 48 hours
> By Andrew West and agencies
> January 26 2003
> The Sun-Herald
> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/25/1042911596206.html
>
> The US intends to shatter Iraq "physically, emotionally and
> psychologically" by raining down on its people as many as 800
> cruise missiles in two days.
>
> The Pentagon battle plan aims not only to crush Iraqi troops,
> but also wipe out power and water supplies in the capital,
> Baghdad.
>
> It is based on a strategy known as "Shock and Awe", conceived at
> the National Defense University in Washington, in which between
> 300 and 400 cruise missiles would fall on Iraq each day for two
> consecutive days. It would be more than twice the number of
> missiles launched during the entire 40 days of the 1991 Gulf
> War.
>
> "There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," a Pentagon official
> told America's CBS News after a briefing on the plan. "The sheer
> size of this has never been seen before, never been contemplated
> before."
>
> The plan has emerged just as American diplomats at the United
> Nations hinted that the US Administration might be willing to
> give UN weapons inspectors another month to complete their task.
>
>
> Chief inspector Hans Blix is due to report back to the UN on
> Tuesday.
>
> President George Bush has been displaying increasing impatience
> with the pace of inspections and is eager to start the bombing.
> But according to UN sources he has resigned himself to the fact
> that the US lacks enough votes on the Security Council to wage a
> military campaign.
>
> Mr Bush's belligerence yesterday found a match in comments by
> Uday Hussein. In a rare public appearance, the son of Iraqi
> dictator Saddam Hussein said the consequences of American attack
> on his country would make the September 11, 2001, terrorist
> strike look like a picnic.
>
> He warned: "If they come, September 11, which they are crying
> over and see as a big thing, will be a real picnic for them, God
> willing.
>
> "They will be hurt and pay a price they will never imagine. They
> can get much more from Iraq without resorting to the logic of
> force and war."
>
> According to the architect of "Shock and Awe", military
> strategist Harlan Ullman, the plan would rely on an extensive
> array of precision-guided weapons.
>
> "We want them to quit, not to fight," Ullman said, "so that you
> have this simultaneous effect - rather like the nuclear weapons
> at Hiroshima - not taking days or weeks but minutes."
>
> The main objective was not just to disable Iraq's fighting
> capacity but to leave the population dispirited and unwilling to
> support Saddam's regime.
>
> "You're sitting in Baghdad and, all of a sudden, you're the
> general and 30 of your division headquarters have been wiped
> out," Mr Ullman said. "You also take the city down. By that I
> mean you get rid of their power and water. In two, three, four,
> five days they are physically, emotionally and psychologically
> exhausted."
>
> The American war plans will cause even greater angst in Europe,
> where the French and Russian governments, reflecting wider
> international fears, are threatening to veto any US rush to
> military action.
>
> French President Jacques Chirac and Russia's Vladimir Putin have
> agreed "their positions [on a US strike] are very close", a
> French spokeswoman said. Both countries are permanent members of
> the UN Security Council, and either could veto any UN approval
> of an American attack.
>
> Mr Putin has also co-opted German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder
> into supporting a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Iraq.
> Germany is now the major power in Europe and the Chancellor's
> reluctance, if not outright refusal, to endorse a unilateral US
> strike would be a major setback to the Bush Administration.
>
> The dossier by Dr Blix, and the head of the International Atomic
> Energy Agency Mohamed ElBaradei, is expected to report that
> Iraqi co-operation with inspectors has been "satisfactory" and
> they could find no "smoking gun", no evidence that could be used
> a pretext for war.
>
> But the pair will also say Iraq could offer even greater
> co-operation in the search for nuclear, chemical or biological
> weapons, or materials that could be used in their construction,
> within its borders.
>
> But America's increasingly aggressive stance is isolating
> opinion around the world. Late on Friday, his Defence Secretary
> Donald Rumsfeld drove a wedge further into US-European relations
> when he dismissed Germany and France as representing "old
> Europe".
>
> He comments drew a sharp rebuke from the foreign ministers of
> both countries.
>
> If the US wants UN approval for any strike it will have to wring
> votes out of the 15 Security Council members. At the moment, it
> can count only on the solid support of Britain, the likely
> support of Spain and Bulgaria, and the possible support of
> Guinea and Cameroon.
>
> China, France, Russia, Germany and Syria were most opposed and
> likely to influence Angola, Chile, Mexico and Pakistan.
>
> -------
>
> Iraq Faces Massive U.S. Missile Barrage
> WASHINGTON, Jan. 24, 2003
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/24/eveningnews/main537928.shtml
>
> (CBS) They're calling it "A-Day," A as in airstrikes so
> devastating they would leave Saddam's soldiers unable or
> unwilling to fight.
>
> If the Pentagon sticks to its current war plan, one day in March
> the Air Force and Navy will launch between 300 and 400 cruise
> missiles at targets in Iraq. As CBS News Correspondent David
> Martin reports, this is more than number that were launched
> during the entire 40 days of the first Gulf War.
>
> On the second day, the plan calls for launching another 300 to
> 400 cruise missiles.
>
> "There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," said one Pentagon
> official who has been briefed on the plan.
>
> "The sheer size of this has never been seen before, never been
> contemplated before," the official said.
>
> The battle plan is based on a concept developed at the National
> Defense University. It's called "Shock and Awe" and it focuses
> on the psychological destruction of the enemy's will to fight
> rather than the physical destruction of his military forces.
>
> "We want them to quit. We want them not to fight," says Harlan
> Ullman, one of the authors of the Shock and Awe concept which
> relies on large numbers of precision guided weapons.
>
> "So that you have this simultaneous effect, rather like the
> nuclear weapons at Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but in
> minutes," says Ullman.
>
> In the first Gulf War, 10 percent of the weapons were precision
> guided. In this war 80 percent will be precision guided.
>
> The Air Force has stockpiled 6,000 of these guidance kits in the
> Persian Gulf to convert ordinary dumb bombs into
> satellite-guided bombs, a weapon that didn't exist in the first
> war.
>
> "You're sitting in Baghdad and all of a sudden you're the
> general and 30 of your division headquarters have been wiped
> out. You also take the city down. By that I mean you get rid of
> their power, water. In 2,3,4,5 days they are physically,
> emotionally and psychologically exhausted," Ullman tells Martin.
>
>
> Last time, an armored armada swept into Kuwait and destroyed
> Saddam's elite republican guard divisions in the largest tank
> battle since the World War II. This time, the target is not the
> Iraqi army but the Iraqi leadership, and the battle plan is
> designed to bypass Iraqi divisions whenever possible.
>
> If Shock and Awe works, there won't be a ground war.
>
> Not everybody in the Bush Administration thinks Shock and Awe
> will work. One senior official called it a bunch of bull, but
> confirmed it is the concept on which the war plan is based.
>
> Last year, in Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan, the U.S. was
> badly surprised by the willingness of al Qaeda to fight to the
> death. If the Iraqis fight, the U.S. would have to throw in
> reinforcements and win the old fashioned way by crushing the
> republican guards, and that would mean more casualties on both
> sides.
>

[Seth]

bombing is the answer to every problem that we face in the world today, so why don't we just blow up the whole fucking world? that would really solve our problems.

saddam is not the only person who has violated un treaties, my friend.

the fact is the United State government controls the UN Security Council and has enforced brutal sanctions on an innoncent Iraqi domestic population for the last decade.

war is simply not the answer to this problem and terrorism in general, what you are positing is endless war.

killing indiscriminate numbers of innocent Iraqis the second time around is the solution?

as far as going after terrorists and those people who fund terrorism. we can start much closer to home, start right here in the United States by shutting down the School of the Assassins or should i call it the School of the Americas, which trains death squads in Latin America that have been responsible for many human rights violations.


for more information on the School of the Assassins, please go to:

http://www.isreview.org/issues/09/school_of_americas.shtml

[poopypants]

dude what the hell are you talking about

[Not_Trapped]

Seth, by your very nature of thought I would pondered that you would be pushing for the "proles" to overthrow Saddam as an effective means to end this "standoff." That is really all there is to it. He is in office, which is leading to the continued sanctions, and he is still in office because of his power of the people (not because of his effective leading ability--he rules by fear).

On another note, my neighbor, and a friend who I have known for the last 7 years came back early from his monthly Guard drill and it sort of had me befuddled because he takes his service to the National Guard pretty seriously. I asked him what he was doing back and he said "We've been mobilized, I report tomorrow with the rest of my Battallion and in a month we'll probably be in Turkey." I don't want my friend to die, but I know that sacrfices have to be made for peace..."War is Peace!" is the last thing he said to me, of course referencing Orwell and 1984. We both share a love of literature and he still can see that we can't let a rogue leader have his way when his way is wrong. Kate pointed out a nice article--he won't stop--

People talk about Bush's lack of compassion and his inability to show empathy. Look no further than his 9/11 address regarding his sorrow and now we have the Columbia Shuttle disaster. Watch that.

This could not be handled differently. If diplomacy would work there is no way that we could go through with a war without international support. Sorry, Seth, I wish this wasn't the way it was, but it is. You push for GOOD things, but sometimes it takes a Hell to give us Heaven.

Dominic

[corduroykate]

"sometimes it takes a Hell to give us Heaven"

very very nicely put

[Seth]

hi, dominic,

in all due respect for your obvious iintelligence, which i can gleam from your many posts, i have to say that your analogy of creating a hell to set up a heaven, is almost as bad as the analogy used by a Bridgewater State student (there was a debate on war with Iraq at my college last week, the consensus being that we should not go to war) who posited the analogy that war with Iraq was the equivalent to a bar room brawl, saying in effect that we should hit them before they hit us, which is absolutely absurd and appaling coming from a college age student who parroting a right-wing college professor at Bridgewater State.

we have created a living hell for not only the people of Iraq, but also in the case of Iran in the seventies, which was another living hell we created by supporting the Shah before the coming of Islamic fundumentalism.

[poopypants]

dominic couldn't have said it better.........

this world is not a place in which good things just magically happen, we have to take a tyrant out of power to bring more stabilization to that country and the region. No matter what the Susan Saradons and Sean Penns of the world believe(and realy, who gives a fuck what they think) they have no more information than you or I.

It's really a shame that the Democrats almost have to root for a failed economy and an unsuccessful war to 'win' back the presidency. I am a realist, and I believe we need the military on our borders to safen up the homeland, I will give you that Seth. But to not deal with our problems in the Middle East would be a catastophic mistake. There is nothing bad about getting him the fuck out of there, i beg you to give me one good thing about keeping him in power. Too many people are busy ripping the president and forget about the real issue here, which is no more days like 9/11 ever again.

[poopypants]

Iraq Threatens Suicide Attacks Against U.S. Troops
31 minutes ago


BERLIN (Reuters) - Iraq will launch thousands of suicide attackers against American troops if the United States invades, Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan told German magazine Der Spiegel on Saturday.



"We are looking forward to the time when they have finished with air bombardments and send in ground troops against us. They will come up against very hard resistance everywhere," Ramadan told the weekly magazine.


"We do not have long-range rockets or bomber squadrons, but we will deploy thousands of suicide attackers... martyrs. These are our new weapons and they will not just be used in Iraq," he said.


Ramadan said the United States would be confronted with a "sea of opposition" in the Middle East, particularly in places like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia where U.S. troops were stationed.


"The Arab people will stand by the Iraqi people in the battle for its independence and freedom. It will be a conflagration in the entire region," he said.


"It will be worse for them than ever before."


Ramadan said talk of Saddam Hussein and Iraqi other leaders going into exile was ridiculous.


He said Iraq would cooperate fully with United Nations weapons inspectors. The United States accuses Iraq of amassing weapons of mass destruction and says it will disarm the country by force if necessary.

DIPLOMACY MY ASS

[yer ardy]

2 questions:

1) let's say anyone could contact president bush with their ideas and concerns about what should/could and shouldn't/couldn't be done with respect to the current happenings in iraq - and you get to be that someone...seriously, what would you suggest? i ask you this only because you always have a response but i've yet to see a working, tangible formula for success....i see you quoting articles of interest that neither state a solution or possible alternative to end this, but merely spew distaste for the us govt and it's leaders and the leaders before them.

2) with all due respect to your rights as an american citizen, if you are so displeased with this country and it's government, why do you make your home here/go to school here/become employed here? will you ever accept the fact that, yes, it would be wonderful if we lived in a perfectly harmonius world of peace and bunnies and happy people, with no war and discord, but the likelihood of that happening in your lifetime is slim?

i'm not trying to be a smartass,
i just really would like to know.

i *don't* have the answers other than i know hussein is a ticking timebomb of insanity and needs to be stopped. i personally can't call up saddam and say "hey, dude, chill out. i'm kinda scared here." so i have to rely on my government and it's leaders to make the right decisions for the right reasons and hope for the best. does that make me ignorant? some would say yes, and i really don't care because until i see a rational solution, i'll support my government and it's actions. it's not for oil, not for political re-election. i equate hussein and his like to hitler. what would've happened if we had just tried the diplomacy angle with hitler?

[mensane]

hey...has anyone heard the new pearl jam album? it's pretty good.;)

[yer ardy]

i *heard* they're going
on tour this year...

wouldn't THAT be cool????

[Seth]

1) let's say anyone could contact president bush with their ideas and concerns about what should/could and shouldn't/couldn't be done with respect to the current happenings in iraq - and you get to be that someone...seriously, what would you suggest? i ask you this only because you always have a response but i've yet to see a working, tangible formula for success....i see you quoting articles of interest that neither state a solution or possible alternative to end this, but merely spew distaste for the us govt and it's leaders and the leaders before them.

ANSWER:

the military option is off the board, simply war is not the answer in dealing with Iraq.

spewing distaste for the US government is not what i'm doing and you are simply using that to sidestep the legitimate points that the articles i post make on a frequent basis.

if you don't believe this is a war about oil, ardy, than there is nothing i can do to change your mind, but simply to say that the motivations of the Bush administation are not fueled by their material oil interests is to keep your head in the sand and deny the reality of what is going on in the world.

using the hitler mischaracterization is employed by leaders in this country to justify to the domestic pre-emptive war and bombing time and time again.

2) with all due respect to your rights as an american citizen, if you are so displeased with this country and it's government, why do you make your home here/go to school here/become employed here?

will you ever accept the fact that, yes, it would be wonderful if we lived in a perfectly harmonius world of peace and bunnies and happy people, with no war and discord, but the likelihood of that happening in your lifetime is slim?


ANSWER: as a citizen of this country it is my duty to speak out against those who act in my name, simply put, it is my moral obligation to do so, ardy.

will i have stop figting for a better world, hell no, ardy! i can say that i believe a better world is possible and a better united states of north america is in the range of realistic possibilities.

i am displeased with the policies of the US government, foreign policies that i hidden from the us domestic population because we have our own censors who monitor in this country what we read and hear about foreign countries.

[mensane]

seth, i think it is great that you are so passionate about the issues you believe in and fight for.

i just wish for once, you could post something that wasnt political....something that gives us a clue what you are like. there must be more to you than what you have shown us.

you must realize that each person here has their own opinion regarding the political system. i for one, AM a conservative, but i dont try to rub it in everyone's face and try to put down other's opinions. we don't need you to "teach" us. we are all adults capable of making decisions for ourselves....

just a thought.

[Seth]

shaley,
being political is what keeps me going as a person on a day to day basis, i'm not going to lie about that, it is what i love, especially the political, economic and social struggle.
could i post about who i am as a person? sure, but many of my interests are of a political or musical nature.
i'm not one to boast about myself it makes me feel awkward to talk about myself.
i'm not trying to teach or preach to people, especially the people on this PJ message board who are obviously smart enough to make their own political decisions.
i'm simply sharing information with my fellow travelers.
if i have given the impression of someone who is talking down to people, then i apoligize because i have learned over the years that is a very disrespectful

[mensane]

i appreciate your thoughtful response.....

[peacefulness]

well, I've kinda given up my effort of trying to state an opinion on this simply because I dont' know what all is going on. I'm pretty sure it's more about the oil than anything else and the Prez could really care less about the Iraqi people. I'm pretty much in belief that all of this is a big pride issue more than any GOOD reason... and there it is. but, i'm just wondering something....

Let's say Mr Hussien has weapons. Ok, and lets say we attack him cuz he doesn't do what we say as far as getting rid of them. Ok.... what the f**k are we attacking him with??? Toothpicks?? Oh, how much better we are. i don't know, I guess I'm missing something. Whatever.

~Melanie

[Seth]

a picture speaks a thousand words :)

http://www.alphalove.com/Media/No_Worries.jpg

[poetrywriter]

I don't get it. Isn't that his wedding band? I can't make out what is on there.

[Om1]

I think its a reference to Lord of the Rings, as in whoever wears the ring will become evil and the whole world will end. I could be wrong.


Om1

[peacefulness]

If you read it backwards, you can hear Ozzy saying "I am Satan and you will do my will."

Sorry, I had to. Frankly, I don't get it either.

~Melanie

[Not_Trapped]

there is nothing to get mel. it is merely a doctored picture.

dominic