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peacefulness
01-03-2002, 08:34 PM
Someone IMed me today and during our conversation gave me a link to this article. It's kinda long, but I found it to be interesting. It goes off into tangents about generation x, what led to gen x, etc. Some stuff I don't think I ever thought about before. I wanted to share it with you and see what you thought about it.

http://www.jesus.com/sermons/cobain/

"Even the best Hollywood hype and New York marketing have never been able to trick me into believing any claims about the products they promote. In my rejection of media, it took until a chance listen to the radio last month for me to hear a Nirvana song and take it seriously. This led me to purchase one of their CDs and begin to find out more about guitarist and vocalist Kurt Cobain.
In my study of Nirvana's music I have been most impressed that Cobain was a very rare type: an artist among popular musicians. While most professional musicians are proficient with their instruments, it is extremely rare that they have artistic sensitivity in either their musical composition or lyrics. Cobain had both. That he was a combination of both artist and popular musician necessitated that he be misunderstood. Consequently, as Generation X turned him into a product and piece of disposable entertainment they also succeeded in killing his spirit and will to live.

Now that the trend sheep have wandered away or been led to whatever popular style MTV or "alternative" radio stations are pushing today, there is finally an opening of space in which to objectively evaluate Cobain and Generation X, both of which have passed into fatality. Though many members of Generation X treated Cobain as an icon, the link between the two was far from reciprocal because most who claimed Cobain as an inspiration fundamentally misunderstood him and his message. As he became popularized, the weight of having a flock of lost and hopeless fans became his despair, leaving suicide as both his salvation from vapid fans and a highly expressive final artistic statement, though it too went misunderstood.

Did Generation Numb Feel Anything?

There are few tributes more pathetic than maudlin gestures performed by people who do not understand what they salute. What Generation X fans seem to least understand is that Cobain was not so much a mouthpiece of Generation X as he was one who openly spoke and mocked its confusion, lack of focus, nihilism, indecisiveness, and self-chosen helplessness. He despised the weak and stupid; and now they appeared as his fans and proclaimed him a genius. He hated the compromisers and squanderers; and now they descended unto him which meant they were preparing to compromise and squander him.

The lack of possibility for getting through to Generation X became apparent with the widespread popularity of the hit single Smells Like Teen Spirit. In poking fun of Generation X's evasion, denial, and broken attention spans, the song overtly uses the refrain "Here we are now/Entertain us" to express the youth's passive relation to life, while offering a variety of scattered and confused lyrics to represent the inability to focus on coherent thought. Similar mockery appeared in Heart-Shaped Box where the chorus offers "Hey/Wait/I've got a new complaint". In Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge on Seattle he addresses the longing for comfort and complacent nothingness with the lyrics "I miss the comfort of being sad". That his audience identified with these lyrics rather than waking up to their collective resignation best demonstrates the unbridgeable gap that only became wider as fans proclaimed his deep insight and cogent articulation but continued to live without change.

Lyrical Exegesis

While the song Heart-Shaped Box speaks fairly simply about one's self-hate for compulsive attraction to female sexuality, more complex is Something in the Way which can be interpreted in three levels. On the surface the simplest and consequently least correct explanation is as a jumble of stream of consciousness ramblings or a hallucinogenic drug trip.

The second level of interpretation reveals the lyrics to be a mockery of liberal justifications in general, expressing the errors and contradictions inherent in any set of justifications. Lyrics such as "And the animals I've trapped/Have all become my pets" seem to speak of the transparent justifications from the perspective of animal rights supporters who own pets yet vociferously declare that all animals should be free of human exploitation. Later the lyrics mock the justification of vegetarians who eat fish with "But it's ok to eat fish/Cause they don't have any feelings". There lyrics here take the voice of a pretentious teen who is explaining his incoherence to others without any awareness of what he is admitting.

Finally, the third and most interesting level of interpretation is that of using liberalism as pure metaphor. Here "And the animals I've trapped/Have all become my pets" refers to mutually needy relationships ("trapped") between mostly thoughtless, directionless, unrefined humans ("animals") in which the attention and care required to shield them from life means they live in a sheltered reality much like pets. Similarly abstract, the interpretation of "And I'm living off of grass/ And the drippings from the ceiling/But it's ok to eat fish/Cause they don't have any feelings" becomes a general unconscious confession of how a person's needs can cause them to justify anything that compromises reason and integrity.

Ignorance is not Bliss

The distance between Cobain and his audience is best exemplified by the degree to which his fans did not understand the intent of his expression.

When art died about a century ago as it was gradually replaced with entertainment, it ensured a tragic situation for any artist who appeared afterwards and attempted to express himself. Audiences today lack all ability to comprehend anything artistic. Having no grasp of metaphor, subtlety, or allusion they want instead everything direct, predictable, and simplistic. Cobain's hope that he could get through on an artistic level can be interpreted as either optimistic innocence or ignorance.

The artist is a rare and sensitive type of thinker. His awareness is more intense than that which others experience. That he feels more than others becomes both his bliss and burden. He sees connections between things that others treat as disparate. He has an urge to express what he sees to others, as it seems to him at least a partial solution to the ignorance that dominates society.

In general an artist sees more than do others, as if he has a special gift of vision, a proverbial third eye that offers him an insight beyond conventional sight. When this world view and approach to thought is conveyed to others but neither understood nor appreciated, the artist often despairs at the frustration of incommunicability. To see life so vividly but to be unable to share it with others becomes a torturous confinement on reality.

Cobain's contempt for the hopeless and unaware seem to have been unknown to most of those who called themselves his fans. Though Cobain hated the idea of entertainment, in the end he became little more than an entertainer for a flock of inappreciative and bored youth. His message could neither be heard nor understood. Thus he was transformed by the capitalistic force of the crowd into the same thing that he wanted to destroy. His hope of freeing the self-imprisoned human spirits that fed the machine of entertainment was stifled by the power of the crowd.

Suicide Solution



The more a person sees others acting against the potential of life, the more their view of life is devalued. If they cannot come to accept that people love wasting potential then they are likely to see human behavior as hopeless self-hate or insanity. If they can't get through to the players of the monkey game then whatever self-worth they may have once had is lost as the result of their fruitless effort to share themselves with others. Thus suicide may be preferable to living once this awareness has overtaken their societal programming of supposed duty to others.

Most of Cobain's fans were unable to digest the autobiographical introspection that his suicide note offered. Instead they sought denial of his final writing and slandered his drug use, claiming it made him confused. This assertion is ludicrous to anyone who has used opiates, in particular when they are used for artistic or reflective purposes under which direction they bring clarity and increased focus.

His suicide note fits into the same pattern of being misunderstood that plagued his public life. He attempted to share tender parts of himself, but when the whole is rejected by his fans even his most open efforts were dismissed so that others could maintain the image of him as a superficial entertainer. Among the notable things he says about himself are:

I haven't felt the excitement of listening to as well as creating music along with reading and writing for too many years now
I'm too sensitive
I still can't get over the frustration, the guilt and empathy I have for everyone
I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too fucking sad
I have it good, very good, and I'm grateful, but since the age of seven, I've become hateful towards all humans in general
I love and feel sorry for people too much
The Roots of a Generation

The children of Generation X became lost as a reflection of the climate in which they grew. They watched their parents try to fake answers and a path as the first truly lost generation who had to face growing up in the cultural decimation of the post-World War 2 era. The American triumph ushered in the era of egalitarianism which meant there could be no longer be any cultural connection between individuals or any collective goal. Any desire for rational ideology or meaning had been effectively destroyed, leaving only economic power and forced equality as acceptable methods. Taking the place of rationality were "feel good" values that effectively stalled all cultural momentum and robbed all potential from the effort of civilization. Though these cultural implications are seemingly unmentioned in mainstream analysis of history, World War 2 had a far more destructive impact for both sides than the mere loss of the 50 million men who died fighting it.

After an entire generation faked their way through life, first with directionless experimenting and rebellion in the 60s, then leisurely resting and posing in the 70s, and finally becoming materialist whores in the 80s, the children of these people could sense the emptiness despite whatever facades were presented. The result of growing up in a climate where no one trusts or believes anything, least of all meaning and hope, made Generation X the logical result. Worst of all, there is no obvious path out. People have a knack for adapting to almost anything and considering it to be "normal", so when it seems easier to submit to life rather than to act with purpose most will choose the easy and meaningless path of obligation, apathy, denial, resignation, and servitude.

When it comes to faking answers, politicians have traditionally offered the most exaggerated example of this behavior, invoking law, God, morality or some other intangible whenever they are lacking real solutions. They don't want an answer, only a distraction, so they play a game of juggling borrowed time with assertions that can never be touched or measured. If the crowd becomes mesmerized by the show then according to all post-industrial age pragmatic valuation the approach is considered effective. We have come to accept this illusion so they happily offer it to us when we become restless for answers.

Generation Numb

The way Generation X interacts with the world, or rather avoids interaction with it, is worthy of study. Even their parents who faked it conceded that there was an underlying reality to accept. In contrast, the children they raised are so numb that they fail to acknowledge reality just as they have lost sight of any dreams or hopes they might have had in their youthful years. This makes it nearly impossible to get through to them at any level. Though words will be heard and maybe even praised, anything offered will be for all practical purposes ignored so that their reality remains safely unchanged. This was the cause of Cobain's increasing frustration; many praised him, but few or none demonstrated any positive change in behavior that would indicate that his words meant anything more to them than entertainment. Instead of trying to understand his message they sought security in inertia.

This will be the legacy of Generation X. They know how to fake all the right words and gestures while keeping a safe distance from anything meaningful and real. They especially keep away from that which might bring the weight of having something of value in their lives. Even when they find their saviors, they might recognize a great potential but react with only passive adoration that suggests disbelief. They will not help themselves and they push away any help they are offered.

These traits make it difficult to get through to anybody who has given up on honesty and hope. They are skeptical and afraid of anything real, which requires giving assurances of reality when attempting to communicate with them. They disbelieve in taking action, preferring instead to watch, comment, or complain. They are only willing to get close to habit, where they find a comfortable safety. When habit fails, they find solace in apathy and the culture that conforms to hopelessness.

In a way, all of this is quintessentially definitive of their approach to life. It seems the only dreams that they will bring themselves will come from their victory in winning their vision of an empty, hopeless world.

-Jesus
September 10, 2000"



~Melanie

"'Let them eat cake,' she says 'just like Marie Antoinette'"

SickForSykora
01-03-2002, 11:16 PM
Mel, I seriously thought that this article was going to be about Jesus.... LOL

It's a really eye opening article on how media,and the fans just made up their own view of him, totally different then the way he was. And how much he didn't want it. This was a really great read.

Thanks for sending me the link Mel. :)
Love ya!
Cara

I hereby give full credit of this username to Paige. We suffer from Sykoraitis

peacefulness
01-03-2002, 11:26 PM
Yeah... I liked it cuz it went into a lot of stuff that was roundaboutly (I say it's a word, damnit! /images/smile.gif) connected back to kurt.

~Melanie

"'Let them eat cake,' she says 'just like Marie Antoinette'"

velcro
01-03-2002, 11:45 PM
and it all makes sense now.

i had never analyzed generation x and kurts involvement very heavily before. i kinda came in late on the whole thing. but better late than never. I've found that it gave me a heightened sense over certain aspects of life that none too many in my generation have. all they want to hear is the dude from staind sob that that they can bitch about it later when their tired of it....but then sing along with it when it comes on the radio......it makes my head hurt sometimes. they are all so indecisive and no one knows what the hell they even believe....its all very sad.....i think i'm having disconnected comments here.....but whatever.

if he thought x was generation numb, just wait.

push your chair to the monkey upstairs

baccusgrrl
01-03-2002, 11:48 PM
Well....

I'm not really sure *how* to file this article. I think I can agree with most of the Cobain part of the article.

However, once I got to the Gen X part I got lost. I cannot, nor would I ever try to speak for my generation: "Gen X" as dubbed by Douglas Copeland. I can however, speak for my place in this age group. I don't feel that I am numbed to sensation. Nor do I feel I avoid living. I will agree that I am a bit skeptical and cynical but that's just apart of my own personal charm ;).

I have heard this same tired rant for the last ten years. I think there are those in my generation who are apathetic and completely hopeless. Just as those characteristics exist in every other generation. But to say that we are all a bunch of lost souls with no desire but to run and hide from life and complain about it in smokey coffee houses to nihilistic music is a gross over-generalization.

Perhaps Cobain saw these things in his peers and did choose to mock it. Or perhaps he was actually mocking the picture of his generation which media painted.

I dunno. That's just my two cents.


You must BE the change you wish to see in the World
-Mahatma Gandhi

peacefulness
01-04-2002, 12:59 AM
Yeah... I kinda thought it was over-generalized too. But it's more detailed than what I'd heard before. All I've ever really heard is 'gen x is this' and 'gen x is that' but I thought it was interesting to hear (read) someone say *why* they thought of gen x this way. Although, I don't know for sure if he was saying all of that because that's what he necessarily believed himself or was just saying that maybe that's what he thought kurt thought. Did that make sense? I don't know.

I think gen x (lets say for the hell of it gen stands for general... as in generally speaking /images/laugh.gif), for the most part, isn't what it's made out to be. This is just speculation on my part, but I bet a lot of these 'evaluations' of the children of the babyboomers began when the babyboomers started having kids. A select few started making assumptions about how these kids would turn out and by the time some started reaching adulthood, it was widely excepted by the masses. That's just a theory.

But this kinda leads me to another question I've had. What exactly is the definition of generation x. Cuz, like... you go by the range of years, and it's debateable cuz I've seen everything from 1960-1980 to 1962-1982... which that last one throw me into the ass end of it...... and if you go by the 'gen x is the children of the babyboomers' thing, then I'm there too. I don't know... seems like the only thing more frustrating than being stuck with a label is wondering if you're being stuck with a label. lol Oh well, I don't worry about it too much... but I do begin to wonder when there's a discussion about 'gen x.' hehe

~Melanie

"'Let them eat cake,' she says 'just like Marie Antoinette'"

13throwcenter
01-04-2002, 03:00 AM
"This will be the legacy of Generation X. They know how to fake all the right words and gestures while keeping a safe distance from anything meaningful and real. They especially keep away from that which might bring the weight of having something of value in their lives."
....as a Gen X'er, i call total bullshit on this one, in fact, I'm borderline offended... if anything, I see my generation trying to determine exactly what IS meaningful and real and valuable.... having the guts to cut through the crap rules that were laid out before us and recognizing you can't apply one set of rules to a very diverse society .... if anything, Kurt was a spokesperson for our generation by (in effect) saying "I'm not going to play along with something I don't like and think is wrong just because it is the script written before me".... unfortunately he came to a place in his life, where...he realized some of the decisions he had made made him feel like a hypocrite and he couldn't handle the weight that came with those decisions so he caved... under a lot of pressure, but I think the pressure came from himself.... if people get pressure from an outside source, what is the response? "PUSH ME AND I WILL RESIST".... you say FUCK YOU I'LL DO IT MY WAY, you don't kill yourself.... you kill yourself to escape the pressure you put on yourself.

Personally, I think that what killed Kurt is that he lived an average lifetime worth of emotions in the span 27 years and his soul was done (with that body, anyway)- it felt all it could feel and that was it- Done. It definitely burned out, but it didn't fade away.


Thanks for sharing your find, Melanie.



Don't just live the length of your life, live the width of it as well. ~Diane Ackerman

yer ardy
01-04-2002, 08:22 AM
i rant, therefore i've had no coffee..bear with me please...

personally, i feel what killed cobain was a shotgun blast to the head pulled by his own finger on the trigger, guided by a miswired mind clouded by chemicals biologically implanted or artificially, got it? because, last time i checked, most sober, clear thinking, lucid people don't blow their heads off. he was no spokesman for anyone or anything. he was no 'gifted' person...he was a "kid" with a personal history none of us really know about, only what we've heard or read, we weren't "there".. and he happened to be a musician, with an insatiable appetite for stimulation unfulfilled by the writing and playing of his hobby(music) or the love of his family, or the existence of his baby girl. if he was a postman or an assembly line worker or a clerk at the piggly wiggly supermarket, he would've ended up the same way. just as holliday, hendrix, joplin, belushi, hoon, nowell and the others before/after him..these people are just people who bleed red blood like you and me. they are addicts. they make choices, some make really stupid choices. they have demons and issues and pressures and problems just like anyone else, only difference is, for a short time in their short lives, they didn't live in a "real" world because they took a trip to "planet entertainment", where men in suits hold guns to their heads to make them sign contracts they don't want to sign to make them do things they don't want to do to make (mostly other) people rich. they take drugs to enhance or numb the 'whatever' in their lives or just because the drugs were offered to them and they felt like trying it or they wanted to fit in or it was cool, whatever...just like anyone else. for some, the addiction gets a hold of them and won't let go -and- yeah, the world of fame & fortune afforded them avenues to feed their addiction du jour better than john q. public's world does. there are lots of people who have had it a helluva lot worse than the aforementioned artists, yet they find someway to get by or around the difficulties life throws in their face by not killing themselves. cobain couldn't "handle" it? boofuckinhoo. cobain is/was no god to be worshipped and idolized, just as vedder isn't either and he'd be the first person to tell you that. look at mccready, for christ's sake - one drink/drug away from doing himself in several times. we claim we know these guys, we know how they think and feel and why they do what they do? no we don't. just like they don't know a thing about me. big deal, they write music and play guitars. if anything cobain and vedder and their ilk are just punk asses...who write and play music that some record company executive thought would sell records. i have no sympathy for any entertainer/famous person who can't "handle" it...get over yourself and deal with it or get the fuck out of the business. the sun doesn't rise and set because you wrote a song or you're in a movie....and the sun's gonna shine on this world the next day whether you're around or not...


generation x, y, z, numb, dumb, boomers, whatever......it's all a media ploy, a "name" to label a group of people who *newsflash* don't represent the masses. this is all someone else's opinion of what and how a group of people should be or feel. it's not to be taken seriously. what is the basis for this? who *are* these people? who is anyone to speak for me? how the fuck do they know my thoughts and feelings about my lot in life and what i'm gonna do with it?

it's herd behavior. give it a name and a way it should be and they'll follow it. individuality is what's important here. fuck what everyone else thinks or is doing - do what YOU want, what YOU think...step outside your comfy world and take risks, get messy...experience it on your terms...

aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhgrrrrrrrrrr- this is so self defeating.....




"...gather your wits and hold on fast.. your mind must learn to roam..."

13throwcenter
01-04-2002, 11:09 AM
and THAT, folks, is about as clear a response as you are going to get.
good stuff, ardy.




Don't just live the length of your life, live the width of it as well. ~Diane Ackerman

MsBuannan
01-04-2002, 11:37 AM
excellent find there mel!!
I agree with the kurt part...especially when the author talks about artists and how they see the world differently and get so frustrated when they can't get others to see what they see...I've been there...I understand that...and, having had an extended conversation with kurt when he was alive (duh)...I can honestly say that I saw that frustration in him as well
the generation x thing may be hugely generalized...but there is some truth to it if you look for it...I think "my" generation is number than the generations before...we've dealt with divorce, drugs, school shootings, aids, and the knowledge that we will not achieve the level of material status that our parents have...that has to make you a bit numb, ya know? it has to make you hesitate to commit, to feel, to even give a shit...I know I've wondered many times why the fuck I bother...every time I let the emotions out...someone is there to fuck me over...I think others in gen x have gone through that as well...not that other generations haven't, but, somehow, I think gen x has felt it all a bit more, it's been more extreme....does that make sense?
and, I don't like nirvana, largely due to the fact that I always saw the lyrics and the meaning behind the lyrics differently than anyone else...I mean drastically differently...not just that I had a subtle difference...nope...I never saw it as speaking for a generation...I saw and still do see the music as completely mocking and fucking with a generation...I've met dave grohl and krist as well...since kurt's death so post nirvana...and, well, not that they are my friends or anything, but, seeing how their sense of humours are...and having seen kurt's warped sense of humour as well...I think it was mocking...I mean, if y'all want to think it speaks to you and it helps ya through, fine...cool...but, in my opinion, nirvana's music is really calling gen x out...telling them just how fucked up they really are...mocking them...even cruelly sometimes...I got tired of arguing with others about my opinions...so, well, I quit listening to nirvana a long time ago...but, maybe, if you relisten to your nirvana cds with the thought that kurt was cruelly mocking gen x and all the bullshit they supposedly stand for...maybe you will see it now?
just my buck fifty worth (inflation ya know)

13throwcenter
01-04-2002, 12:10 PM
I definitely saw their music as mocking their/our generation, that was the reason I *did* like it way back when. I do know other (thinking) people recognized it as mocking as well... perhaps it was that part of society who eats what they are fed without much thought that absorbed it as honesty... the media afterall, told them that Kurt was their spokesperson, why shouldn't they believe it?



Don't just live the length of your life, live the width of it as well. ~Diane Ackerman

beegirl
01-04-2002, 02:20 PM
I really liked the article. But I don't know if it's true. I don't think we could ever know if all of it was. But I like to believe it is true just b/c some of it is what I believed heh. But some very good points were put out. Nice to hear everyones opinion ^_^

~ bee

babarocks
01-04-2002, 03:18 PM
You guys really need to read "Heavier Than Heaven", the new Cobain biography. The guy who wrote it got access to Kurt's journals from Courtney Love. Boxes and boxes of journals. It is unreal how complex Cobain was, but I guess no one is simple or easy to pigeonhole.

Kurt seemed to be so many walking contradictions... it had to be exhausting to be him. So I agree with most of what that guy said about him, although I totally agree with MsBuannan and others who said Kurt wasn't trying to speak FOR his generation, he was just giving his view OF that generation. Buannan, I'm not sure why you think so many Nirvana fans hear their music differently from you, but I've also not spent much time arguing with other fans. Most Nirvana fans I know think the way I do: Kurt was insecure and both ambitious and also wildly unsure and out of that came some amazing art. He was mocking most of the time it seemed, but I thought that was a given. I'm suprised to hear so many fans see it differently.

Ardy, you are of course entitled to your opinion that Kurt wasn't talented. I just got to share my first experiences with Nirvana though, because I completely disagree. Before hearing any Nirvana, I really disliked loud, dischordant music, even if it did have rhythm. I mostly liked music that was easy to follow, I mean PJ's Ten is not a hard album to like because it is not really all that acidic in my opinion.

Then in '91 someone lent me Nevermind and DEMANDED that I listen to it. This was obviously before you couldn't avoid hearing Teen Spirit. I put on the cd and didn't make it past the first track for a good hour. I just listened to Teen Spirit over and over and over again, and without having EVER seen that or any other "grundge" video I jumped wildly around my room and moshed with my imaginary friends, all because that song, that music, those words (the ones I could understand anyway) they touched something deep at my core. The music cut to my core in a way it other music had never touched me, so I was even dancing in ways I'd never moved.

That's a long way of saying, in my opinion Kurt was AMAZINGLY gifted. More so than most other musicians. Because he took a deep feeling, a deep sense that so many of us can relate to and was able to convey it through music and words. It touched not just the fans who already liked that sort of music, but fans like me who hated it before.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but it's really always amazed me when people said Kurt was overrated, not talented, or not worth all the hype. Hype is bullshit of course, but if ever there was someone with talent, he's definitely one of them. Not saying he didn't have his "issues" and I think he was part of creating the very hype he said he despised (Cross's biography says somewhere that he complained to his label in the early days that they weren't promoting the album enough or something). But to me his talent is still undeniable.

Oh yeah, and anyone who hasn't rented "Nirvana: Live, Sold Out" is really missing something. It's awesome.

The people must have something good to read
On a Sunday

peacefulness
01-04-2002, 04:24 PM
haha... that's great. The next time I inspired to rant, I'll say that and site you as my inspiration... cuz I like it.

That's pretty much what I thought reading the article. But hey, anybody take the time to look at the rest of the site. Well, maybe when you do you'll see why it's even easier to file this as 'simpleton rambling.' I was amused. But he, guess everyone's entitled to an opinion... even... err.... Jesus? *cough, cough*

~Melanie

"'Let them eat cake,' she says 'just like Marie Antoinette'"

MsBuannan
01-04-2002, 04:55 PM
I have read heavier than heaven
as far as the nirvana fans that I've spoken to...I guess it should be noted that I was living in utah in the early 90s...so that could be part of it...or maybe I just didn't explain it well enough...kurt wasn't just mocking...he was bitingly sarcastic...it wasn't like innocent monty python mockery...it's meant to sting...to hurt...to piss people off...I'm not even sure it was to motivate...I think kurt got a kick out of people hating him or even being pissed at him...I think that is why he hated the adoration so much...yet, like all humans, he craved acceptance on some level...which is why he wanted the adoration...does that make sense? just theories, mainly based on a 3 hour conversation I had with him many years ago at a seattle cafe...I had no clue who he was until after...I just thought he was a cool, intelligent guy...with more pain in his beautiful blue eyes than anyone should ever have

yer ardy
01-04-2002, 04:56 PM
....it all depends on what one considers as "talent"...some people laughed at van gogh and said he was a mess, others consider his art as perfection. for every nirvana fan there's a britney fan...for every pearl jam fan, we have 10 more creed fans...sheer, balls-on talent is multi-faceted and is, just like one's definition of 'beauty', in the eye/ear of the beholder...

if my words imply that my opinion of cobain is that he wasn't "talented", then i need to explain...i never said he wasn't talented, i just don't think he, or any other musician/actor/sportsplayer, should be put on a pedestal as an icon that "spoke for a generation..."....and i don't think he was gifted...he wrote what he felt in a cathartic and theraputic expression, sometimes sober, sometimes lit....then the words he wrote were 'interpreted' by others to *mean* something to *them*...critics, fans, neighbors, friends, family, even courtney...they all read/listened to his words and got their own thing out of them..just like any of us would do with any form of art or work of an artist. when frances grows up and has the wherewithall to explore that which is her father's legacy, she, herself, will interpret it in a whole new pure and innocent way - but, of course, that will only happen if she is not tainted by the opinions of those around her...fat chance, huh?

sure kurt was talented. i think anyone, A-N-Y-one, who can put words on a paper, arrange a melody, then make it sing out of a guitar is talented. i think if you can sing or dance, walk up the stairs and chew gum at the same time, if you can take a picture with a camera and you don't cut someone's head off, that's talent. cobain was intense, more so than you and i will ever know. but i'm going out on a limb here and bet that if you asked him if he wanted to speak for his generation via his writing, whatever the hell that means, he'd have laughed in your face, got up and laid tracks out of the room faster than you could blink.

cobain was indeed insecure. as are most actors and singers. as are most people on this board. as are your friends..maybe even yourself. i know i am. i feel less insecure when i drink and do drugs - i feel less insecure when someone compliments what i write or say. the rest of the time i'm the most insecure person you'll ever meet. we're all actors in the big movie of life, we play parts to get what we want and we play the game if what we got isn't exactly what we wanted. famous people thrive on the attention they get, complain when they don't get it, and fade away when the next flavor of the month comes along. you ask any "famous" person what they miss the most, and it will more than likely be their 'normal' life - when they could walk into a record store and peruse the vinyls without being bothered, when they could sit on their front porch or walk on the sidewalk in front of their home without "fans" pulling a drive-by. who would want to be that famous? and who wants their personal opinions strewn about as "the script for a generation." cobain dealt with it in his way, in a way that didn't work, obviously. he was weakened by his fragile emotional/mental state, i believe there's way more to the story of his psychological structure than we can ever possibly know.

i seriously think it's really just me and my warped mind at work here...
because i can't worship anyone and i don't believe in anybody...
so i don't understand how anyone else can or does...
apologies if i offended anyone...not my intention... /images/smile.gif




"...gather your wits and hold on fast.. your mind must learn to roam..."

babarocks
01-04-2002, 05:33 PM
I agree that people shouldn't be worshipped and I agree that Kurt definitely did not set out to "speak for a generation" although our culture makes icons all the time and loves to hold people/things/events up as "representing" huge groups that are actually hard to categorize. So Kurt is as sensible a victim of "cultural categorization" as any other "icon" in my opinion. But I agree, I think that's not what he was trying to do or be.

The main place we disagree is, you said he wasn't gifted, and you said set his feelings to paper and then people "interpreted" them and that's where his hype came from. I still totally disagree. Everyone who puts their thoughts to paper or music or puts their feelings to canvas or dance, they are still not ALL talented. I could put my feelings to dance right now, but as you said whether I'm "talented" or not will be in hte eyes/ears/heart of the beholder. And yeah, that means whether Kurt was gifted or not is also a matter of opinion. But what's not opinion but is fact is that a HUGE HUGE number of Nirvana fans speak of the same experience as I had: it wasn't just the words or the music, it was something deeper than that in the music, it was a soul and a desperation. You can say we "interpreted" or "projected" that into the music, but the fact remains there are very very few bands/musicians who have as many fans who will rabidly and aggressively testify that Nirvana did something special. And 50,000,000,000 Elvis fans can't be wrong, right? ;)

I understand the distinctions you made between talent and gifted. But I stand by my statement, even by your definitions Kurt was gifted, because what he did is something very few performers ever ever achieve. His art touched a HUGE number of people, a HUGE VARIETY of people, in deep deep ways. That's simply uncommon and I don't know what else to call him but gifted.

But you're right, that's still nto a reason to worship him or mythologize him.

The people must have something good to read
On a Sunday

babarocks
01-04-2002, 05:38 PM
Kurt is one of the few people I will never get to talk to (in this life) who I really regret not talking to. That's amazing that you talked to him for 3 hours. How did you not know who it was when you were talking, but then find out after? Like did someone right after tell you who he was, or did yo usee him on a magazine cover later and go "Oh my gosh, it's that guy!"

Re: what his writing style, well even if it was bitingly sarcastic and even if he liked people to hate him yet craved acceptance and adoration (and I agree with all of that, which is what made him such a contradiction), I'm still not sure why you think so many of Nirvana's fans misinterpreted that. Sure, today's Abercrombie and Fitch-wearing frat boys and girls (no offense to any AF wearers, but it is some of the LEAST orginal clothing you could possibly wear) who were into Nirvana yesterday, they totally and completely DON'T get what Kurt was about because they are mainstream and Kurt was writing from way way out of the stream. When they sang along at concerts I'm sure that was weird for him. But most die-hard Nirvana fans, the ones who really listen to the lyrics and get the pain and anger and insecurity, what do you think they misinterpreted?

The people must have something good to read
On a Sunday

babarocks
01-04-2002, 05:39 PM
What did you think of Heavier than Heaven?

The people must have something good to read
On a Sunday

MsBuannan
01-04-2002, 05:45 PM
my friends told me afterward who it was...I knew the name...of course..but didn't really care for nirvana..this was like in 1992 I think...they gave me shit about it for a long time after...the reason I think most fans didn't get it was because whenever I talked to them...then, not now..this is really the first time I've talked about nirvana lately...anyway...whenever I talked to them they put him on this pedestal and regurgitated all that spokesman for a generation shit...I used to argue until I was blue in the face with them about it...so I just kinda figured everyone was like that and maybe I was the one that didn't get it

MsBuannan
01-04-2002, 05:51 PM
oh...and I thought heavier than heaven was pretty good...but it's kinda like the author fizzled at the end...I still think he left a lot unsaid...I don't think is delved as deep as it should have or could have...but it's worth the read definitely

yer ardy
01-04-2002, 07:49 PM
in our own way at our own thing...
your talent for intelligent debate and discussion is obvious in this thread...
and i'm sure that's not the only thing yer good at.. /images/wink.gif

i think cobain wasn't 'gifted' in the same vein as the academically gifted child aces regular school and enters med school at age 12. then you have the artistically gifted, the person who can create/draw/paint, no lessons, no classes taken, they just pick up whatever and voila! there's the musically gifted person, one who, with no formal lessons or training, can play anything on sight or by ear... medically gifted, literary gifted, scientifically gifted, emotionally gifted, diplomatically gifted....the list is endless...

ok..so kurt was gifted in his ability to touch the thousands of fans who appreciated him.. but was it all kurt? what about the contributions of krist and dave? are we speaking of kurt solely or the band nirvana? i'm flipping this over and looking at it, not from the 'kurt' side now, but from the 'fan' side. obviously, i'm not as 'touched' by nirvana as you are. that could be the issue here. i'm pretty sure we are not the same age, therefore, we are of different generations. let me make the assumption the beatles were to my generation/age group what nirvana was/is to yours. lennon & mccartney's songwriting did not touch a HUGE number of people...a HUGE variety of people..in deep ways as well? i think it did, just like cobain did..so does vedder's...so did robert johnson's...so does carole king's...so did jim morrison's....so did simon & garfunkle's....and there's a great many 'unknown' songwriters who made the singer look fabulous - the singer never wrote a word of a song or note of music..but the way they sang it made people stop and think ... and feel and do and be in ways only a soul can be moved, in ways
desperation makes one act... kurt's/nirvana's timing was impeccable - coming about during a desperate time in music, i will agree to that wholeheartedly. it sure is something we need again today, especially to quell the puppets in popular music now - the britneys, the boy bands, the techno-factured sugary drivel selling like mad, disguised as "music" ...ugh...grrrrr... and that, to some, is considered talent??

i understand your point, simply because i now understand how much i wasn't affected by cobain's words/music. i remember 'teen spirit'...i really dig 'come as you are'...i am not moved by the words or blown away by the intended meaning of cobain's art. and that's where my indifference comes into play.

i still feel the way i do about cobain, and i dearly respect your input to this discussion. i'm gonna hear nirvana with a different ear now, thanks to you. /images/smile.gif





"...gather your wits and hold on fast.. your mind must learn to roam..."

babarocks
01-04-2002, 10:16 PM
That's interesting. I suppose a lot was left unsaid, but I'm not sure he was the one to say it? Anything in particular you think the writer could have said that he didn't? One thing I really respected about it is the way it tried as best it could to be objective (a nearly impossible task with someone as well known as Kurt). I'm not sure what else could ahve been said without drawing conclusions, and maybe Cross felt those weren't for him to draw?

As for it being 1992 and you not knowing who you were talking to, I bet you were a breath of fresh air for Kurt. I'm not suprised you talked for 3 hrs... What I would give to have been a fly on the wall (or a friend at the table!) with you 2. You may have exhausted this topic but I'd love to hear what you talked about, if you feel like sharing. But I understand if you don't. I'm sure that's an amazingly special memory.

The people must have something good to read
On a Sunday

babarocks
01-04-2002, 10:22 PM
That's very nice of you to say Ardy, that you will listen to Nirvana's music with a different ear next time. That's really all one can hope for from a conversation, that we heard each other and may think about the whole thing a little differently now. I agree with you that the Beatles were monumentally influential, but there really are only a handful of such musicians in the history of music. Sure there are plenty of amazing musicians, I think Carole King is amazing, but even though I've been hearing her music since I was a kid I can honestly say she's never snuck up on me and electrified all my nerves without me expecting it. Maybe it's just me, and maybe she's done that for many other people, but I guess my point is that only a handful of artists (given how many millions of artists there are in the world) produce art that cuts across so many cultural divides and reaches that many people and then just electrifies them at that level. Sure, most artists can never hope for the type of exposure that Nirvana got, and I'm sure we can all name a few bands who we are sure would have been hugely famous if they'd had the exposure. But what can I say, I think you see my point and I see yours. I agree we're all gifted in some way, but do you really feel like everyone has the same "amount" of giftedness tucked somewhere in them? That's not been my experience in the world, but I like it as a theory. Just not sure I believe in it.

Thanks for talking, it's nice to disagree with people and still like them this far into the discussion! :)

The people must have something good to read
On a Sunday

peacefulness
01-05-2002, 12:02 AM
but I'm so happy something I posted has sparked a conversation. You have no idea. Does that make me wierd? UUUUUhhhh.... most likely yes. but that's ok... just thought I'd share. /images/laugh.gif

~Melanie

"'Let them eat cake,' she says 'just like Marie Antoinette'"

yer ardy
01-05-2002, 12:29 AM
yeah, i'd have to say that i do think
everyone has a degree of greatness or
some special gift in them...whether they
know it or not, whether it gets 'tapped' or not...
is just one cruel irony of life...

you either got it or you don't...
but you'll never know until you give it a go...

thanks right back atcha...was nice rappin with ya here on the comfy couch.../images/wink.gif





"...I'm the 'you' they get when they can't get you..."

Highway23
01-06-2002, 10:05 PM
Ardy, have I ever told you how awesome YOU are?!



I used to listen to Nirvana, in fact I listened to them even before I got into Pearl Jam. To me, Nirvana had a tone that was new, fresh, and something that you listened to because yer parents didn't like it. It was the lyrics of someone who was young like you and was able to come out and sing shit that you had been writing down in yer journals for the past three years.

Kurt, like many of you have stated, was placed onto a podeum in hopes of guiding the mis-guided and becoming a leader of the kids who were lost. But how can someone like that be a leader? How can someone who would do heroin really be a leader? What do so many of yer idols do to really become a leader? I know I'm in no way fit to be a leader. Just because I share so many ideas that people have, I couldn't be a leader. My mind isn't stable, I would never be able to be on that podeum in search of helping my peers and 'generation' into exiting the hurt and pain that they are feeling. Ed once said, almost a quote, "how can I help people drowning when I am drowing myself" (I wish I could remember the full quote...damnit)....

Ardy, you are right, everyone has a gift, in some form or another each and every one of us has a gift that would be gladly appreciated by someone. everyone is special, and all of us need to realize that....even though alot of the time I don't even realize it.

It's tough...life is tough...


If Kurt actually 'did' commit suicide, then it is an escape, or more of a quiting of a soul that just needed some more strength. You can't get strength by holding it in, you can't get it from writing it down and singing it, you need to be willing to share it with people who are willing to listen, and you yourself have to be willing to have that helping hand help you...


I think I may have made some sense there...I have no idea...

"I'm obsessed I'm a wreck I'm insane, isn't that what you want me to say?"=Liz Phair

babarocks
01-07-2002, 03:50 PM
You're pathetic.... NOT!!!!!!!!!!! Of course that doesn't make you pathetic Peacefullness, I know exactly how you feel! It's just nice to write something (and you sure wrote a lot) that then leads to people having interesting exchanges. I've felt that way too, because it's nice to lay the seed that sparks the good discussion. Keep being pathetic Peacefulness, cuz that kind of "pathetic" rules! :)

The people must have something good to read
On a Sunday